Philosophy log 8-20-07 part 2
Anything you feel a need for, you can notice its absence in the world. Zero is an abstraction of that noticing. if its not there, it doesnt exist no, zero is not nothing I'm saying that the fact that it is not there exists as a real thing. i dispute that the not-thereness is a real thing. Otherwise, how would anybody owe anybody else anything? i say the existence of that is memory and imagination I love this, by the way :) you seem very comfortable in dismissing experience to the realm of thought. Perhaps too comfortable. nope. i know the didtinction distinction If experience is first, which I say it is, then any experience is part of reality even if the experience is not shared. i am a knower of awareness first awareness, then experience, then thought/ and feeling then what about an experiencer of awareness. reality is not just a good idea we whipped up one day. And I guess I disagree. yes you can experience awareness, but.... Experience, then awareness, then thought. even the experience of a thought. athPoet, you can not perceive the perceiver why not? don't Buddhists and physicists do it all the time:) besides, I disagree. no, they become the perceiver you cannot see the one that looks look at yourself I think and understand that I can become aware of my experience and have thoughts about my awareness and experience but who perceives those thoughts? who or what is aware? I do look at myself. Often. Not that I'm cute, but it's important to try to come to some UNDERSTANDING of life. and that begins with experience. no, not look at yourself, but look at the looker There is no contradiction with having self-knowledge. I find it to be an evolving process. and I postulate that reality could be a work in progress as well. you we create it everyday have already put the distinction there between the perceiver and the perceived. 3 billion years of evolution. Now its up to you that's why no one can argue you out of it. there may be an overlap thats the problem between the inner and outer worlds where we can live and perceive both at once. you have: the knower, the known and the process of knowing I believe that, I believe. but what are either? nobody knows yet matter isn't explained yet and you don't think/feel/sense that these are integral to consciousness> nor is the se;lf ??? Just because you haven't experienced it does not mean it does not happen. You beg the question. consciousness is like a crystal ball now we're in the Wizard of OZ :) it takes the colour of the surroundings sorry. cheap shot. who knows if youre right? I don't have to be right for anyone else if I base what I know on what comes true in my life. I know that. And you seem to be guessing at theories to explain things that you don't know. If you base what you know on experience then you cannot be shaken. "I know it because I feel it" This is why I often vote to throw out the Law. It can never explain the multiplicity of experience. but why do you feel it? No, real knowing is not a feeling the feeling accompanies it I don't agree. Even the "why do you feel it" presupposes something before it. You begin with contradiction and then derive contradiction. It's called begging the question. What it is, is that you dont' BELIEVE what I'm saying and so come up with ideas to surmount it. But I say what I've lived through. and I say that feeling comes first, then awareness, then idea (if any). mathpoet, will you log this conversation afterwards please? i have to recapitulatre recapitulate yes. haha does that mean this is over now? interesting what do you think, Galga? what? it's over when i DIE!!! no seriously if u plug a vcam to a ttv/monitor & focus on the monitor screen yes! Ouroboros. OUROROBOROS!!! RORO!!! :) the world snake yes looking at the looker lets talk about the snake that eats itself maybe a model for fourdimensional finite unbounded closed universe. and by eating it exists but unable to decide whether it exists or not well, does it exist or not? I believe the term is "dubious". well, that is the point. what is existance? identifiable what does THAT mean? I think that the "looker" is a non-object distinguish "What is existance?" What does that mean? it is only definable in contradictory terms perhaps.... not this, not that it is not light, not darkness, etcetera like the statue of David, the sculptor "just took away the bits that weren't David." it doesn't exist and by that it creATES EVERYTHING THE UNMOVED MOVER I loathe defining things in terms of things they are not. Perhaps that's what an eternity is for. sorry, capslock existence of future event ? does it really exist Mathpoet, all logic leads to paradoxes Maybe... yes What if it is giving birth to itself? it is a separate system with links o reality Artificial constraint, again. to yes! the logical mind is artificial!!! How right you are lol @ of capslock MathPoet you said it :) what if you experienced something we usually think of as idea as a metaphysical reality? the idea follows the experience Logic is a way to be right "in the world". That's it: the concept is an articial reality *artificial awareness follows feeling and thought follows awareness. no, awareness comes first If you don't feel it, there's nothing to be aware of. feel SOMETHING. yes, you are aware of your feeling(s) your feelings are not aware of you. If feeling is what we're aware of, then the only reality we MIGHT have is some overlap. there is the observer and the observed feelings are observed by the observer experience is experienced by the experiencer and the process of feeling, becoming aware, and having thoughts about our experiences can lead us to greater understanding of ourselves our lives and our universe. feelings are felt by the feeler yes i sure hope it does so there is a process whereby we come to (imperfectly) understand the world. we don't all have to agree on what reality is, and yet we may believe that it exists. If belief happpens, that could be wonderful and terrible. But at least I'd know where I stand. look. there is the subjective "I" and the so called objective "world". none of these concepts have been understood to the chore by any of the sciences *core? the central question The closest, I believe is Depth Psychology, which I don't know very much about. what is reality? what is matter/energy? I do believe in a God that relativizes and provides perspective to both myself and my world. they can say what they DO but not what it IS everybody's still looking haha. yes haha. i'm glad you laugh :D because if we're not speaking from experience, we can only say what it is "like". not what it "is" what is the oundation of matter? foundation? what is life? we can say energy is that-which-moves of some other image like that. what is consciousness? what is perceiving? more than that, what do these questions mean? seriously. what do the questions mean? explain. by asking, aren't you asking for context? something they are like? it means that we are virtual atoms in an eternal universe hmmm and yet you can experience energy and matter and perception and consciousness! just realized that i m the luckiest one out of millions to become me yes, because every fragment reflects the all you can experience these things, and still you ask. What is the answer you are looking for, if it's not found "in your own house?" perhaps, luck, time, God and so... favoured me to occupy my existence That's great, Galga! it's because we have to die, MathPoet I think Andre Watts exists to I don't have to do what he does and can have our own work. before its begun We don't know really what that means, though, do we DGNeree ? experientially. no we don't. we don't even know what life means or why anything exists in the first place Dive into life while you are alive!!1 I say, find the truth of our own experience. Become aware of it. think about it. Life is a fact!!! XD :'( . or is it? My teacher taught me to trust my life as best I can. It's a work in progress. yes, please do Belief is a work in progress. Reality is a work in progress. I believe in what I have learned all the more if I have experienced it. ATTENTION!!! i have a topic This is why I don't ask others to believe in God. Okay shut up! what's the topic? :) the snake The universe is constantly being created and destroyed at the same time as what? A symbol? or the thing beneath the rock? no, it lives and grows because it eats itself If there is an eternity, then I feel inclined to agree. its a paradox MathPoet. you live because you eat other living creatures and they live because they eat you nature is a living treadmill so if u stop eating other living things u will stop living ? and so is the universe yes Technically, no. I actually live because I haven't died yet. Beyond that, yes. I eat others to survive. can you live on sand or rocks? it's the same with the universe but a polar bear lives for nine months without eating anything. right ? it decided to create itself so it could eat itself What is the point again? to show the "appropriateness" of a symbol? aaah and by eating it would grow and devour itself good. next, let's consider the yoyo as the model of the universe. I don't understand, honestly. and the more it grows, the more it will eat youre not to blame look at it this way: why create a symbol to describe what the universe is like when you can experience it firsthand? well, why bother about a big bang? I guess there is some value in it. who cares? NO. I didn't mean thatm it's just that when someone comes up with some idea there's so much fighting about it. MathPoet: neutralise two opposites and the magnetic field is gone why is there so much fighting? because we are in HELL its our fate :'( XD who can say which came first? the dissappearance of the magnetic field or the neutralization? egg or chicken I think the whole Hell thing is too easy. It doesn't have to be that way. no. there is extacy and knowing and beauty and the reality of our sacred experience. yes, the game!!! WAR!!! more that the game or the war. and the stakes are high. LOVE!!!! our life is at stake! and yet again it isnt er. capslock.... because we've lost already it is an unfair battle maybe our souls are at stake, and maybe not. no, not our souls but the chambers where it is forced to dwell but I choose to believe that the experience is the thing. the FEELING is what we need to know and live with. but they are dreams category:Discussions